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Pegasus
Administrator
| Joined: | 19 Aug 2005 |
| Location: | New York USA |
| Posts: | 71 |
| Mana: |   |
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Posted: 8 Feb 2006 12:42 pm |
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Hey Jack,
I often wonder where you get the time to post such well thought out and sometimes long winded (no offense meant) posts. You, my friend, are missing one point that is so important. It is not correct for you to say that you do not make a difference or you do not have the answers.
The mere fact that you discuss this stuff openly and honestly has an effect that you may never realize. It often astounds me the things that happen in this world as a result of one persons actions. And believe me, Jack, thoughts are actions. Every thought you have, believe it or not, has repurcussions in the real world! I have seen this in my own life. Day in and day out.
As for the Jewish, Muslim, Israeli, Palestinian, Charicature problem, you hit it on the head. Education is the answer and without education, there will be very little hope of a lasting Peace in the Middle East. It has to do with perspective I think. When you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. When you have never tasted freedom, you have no respect for freedom. When you only know hate then it is hate that you will believe in.
I have often thought that the best way to bring peace to the Iraqi's was not through the dropping of bombs or other 'Ordinance'. How about if we drop Refrigerators, Microwaves and iPods?
What a difference it would make.
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http://www.IronDove.com
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jackb
Member
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Posted: 8 Feb 2006 01:19 am |
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Reading that back, I realize I may not have empathized with the Palestinian People. This is part due to my frustration with the election of Hamas itself, but is indeed, no excuse for lack of understaning. It is even harder when our own country is working to establish yet another Islamic Theocracy in Iraq. Palestine has the full support of Iran and the other Islamic nations around it, and Palestinians know this, I wonder if the election of Hamas was to, in part, further solidify relations with Iran, as Iran announces nuclear development, I do not know. It is frankly, easier for me to hear the side of Israel, because I really do not see much from Palestinian leaders when it comes to explaining "their side". I know in my heart that both sides have done terrible things to eachother for longer than the US has been around, this deep seeded remembrance of history further tangles the web of mistrust and anger.
I would love to hear from moderate muslims, those representing common sense palestinian policy. There does not seem to be much of an outlet for that, in part, because that country does not have clear freedom of speech laws. If anyone knows a source, even a blog of someone writing on behalf of the Palestinian side of things, I'd really like to read some words of tolerance and diplomacy on that side as well. IF nothing else but to enbrance and encourage that attempt at peace.
The UN is huge, but the UN is myred in its own troubles, due to more bad leadership. It is almost cyclictic. I just wanted to add this, because I fully understand that seeing both sides is critical. Yes somewhere in the middle is truth. But I really think its more complicated than that. I think both sides are telling the absolute truth about some things, and then blatantly propagandizing (lying) about the rest. How do we dance between distortion to find truth, and ultimately, does it matter? Or is a common end goal of lasting peace good enough to convince people to forget the past and move on. If it was my mother bombed by Israel, I don't know how easily I could do that. If my father was blown to red mist by a Palestinian suicide bomber, I don't know how easily it would be for me to forget the past.
The last thing I will post on this tonight, is perhaps the most important thing, the thing I keep coming back to. It is soooooo much easier to have answers and "alleged" understanding of things when your on the outside.
Until you walk a mile in another man's shoes.....
Goodnight L and Irondove, Take care,
Jack
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jackb
Member
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Posted: 8 Feb 2006 12:56 am |
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As far as the Israel and Palestinian debate, it is one that I really don't want to take sides on. Everything I read and study tells me that it is far beyond the rhealm of full outsider comprehension. You can't win if you pick one side. The situation does remind me of children, but the same could be said between many partisans in this country, or for that matter any 2 groups of true believers.
I first have to reject that Hamas was elected democratically. Palestine is, by design, a theocracy. Even if you set that aside, I don't believe any demcracy exists without both a "4th Estate"- Responsible Media AND more importantly an informed electorate. Considering that Palestine is a theocracy with no real free press and anything but an informed electorate (those little things like keeping women from going to school etc...). I do know that Sharia Law is the law of the land in Palestine and that Mulsim clerics have ruled that group for as far back as I can recall. I don't think any theocracy can really be a democracy. I think democracy stems from secularism and secular, Palestine, Iraq and Iran, and Saudi Arabia are not.
I am responding to this, because 1: How cool is it that L responds to ME *brags*  and because of the recent world events involving the extreme overeaction and planned manipulation of Cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed. All over the world I see religious zealots acting out in violence. This is bad, bad, bad. Its spreading the misinformation that all muslims are so extreme. The Danish Embasy was burned, firetrucks burned. It looks really bad. Nobody has the right to react violently to a cartoon. A free press is an idea that stems from Democracy, its no suprise to me that only civilians within Theocracies would fail to understand what free speech means. "
"Yes its ok for me to protest and burn down an embasy, but God forbid someone draw an offensive cartoon."
How do you deal with this? Is it ignorance, conditioning, religious mind control? I have no idea how to deal with this. I wish I knew.
Isreal is not without its faults. The US certainly has made many mistakes in dealing with peace talks. I do think that Israel is loathed in part, because they are en example of what these Islamic theocracies seem to be opposed to, Freedom and Democracy. How can Iran and Palestine and Iraq and the surrounding area convince its populus that Sharia Law and Religious governments are the best option when their free Israeli neighbors lead so much more complete lifestyles.
My feelings have grown alot on this whole issue of Hamas and Iran and the PLO and Israel in light of the last months events with the Danish News Paper and the Reprint by the French AND the response of the conservative Islamic world. On the heels of riots in Paris and Europe by Muslims. More recently some Israelis have talked about tactical strikes to attempt to destroy Irans nuclear program, not destroy it so much as to delay it. Its highly unlikely, but its even more tension to fill the air.
This is getting scary, the world is so small... we do have to figure out a way to get along and set differences aside. I've long believed that education is the long term solution to this, education in my experience, can solve most of life's social problems. It is a real answer also, it doesn't just plug the leak. Controlling people, through religion, through economic hardships, or through fear by declaring War on a Tactic all leads to the same result, death and misery.
I know its a bit heavy, but the world is getting smaller, our leadership and the leaders of key nations are not particularly the most appropriate for the problems of today. Good Leadership makes as big a difference as bad leadership. Maybe more.
I wish I had permission to post the response, well, I think its worth it, here is a truncated (for privacy purposes) version of the response from my coorespondant....they say it alot better than I ever could.
" A terrorist organization that has a political or social action wing is still a terrorist organization. They still operate under the same charter as in Hamas whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel.
We have never had a true partner. All of them were tainted. Arafat was never going to sign anything and he started this present intifada. Abbas, his succesor has blood on his hands. He is responsible for a 1974 attack on a school where 21 students aged 14-16 were killed. I smiled when the world was astounded that the Chechnyans attacked a school as if this unthinkable thing was the first time it had been done. So for lack of choice we had to deal with Abbas who decided to let Hamas and friends run rampant. Maybe he was weak but he never even tried. So now we pay for the mistakes the Palestinians make.
The only true partner for peace we ever had was Anwar Sadat from Egypt. And he was killed because of it but a t least we have peace. And trust me -giving Egypt the Sinai desert was very hard for me personally. But I had the utmost respect for Sadat.We also have peace with Jordan. They are a bit afraid of the Palestinians. Eighty percent of Jordan was once part of British Mandate Palestine. So that is your history lesson for today!
Iran is a big problem. They are crazy and unstable. If they nuke us they would also destroy what would become Palestine and parts of Jordan and possibly Lebanon. I don't know what the radius of destruction is but we are a very small country. I don't know what the answer is. I don't know about the logistics of Israel taking out their nuclear reactors. They are farther away than Iraq was and I think they have more than one reactor. I can't see diplomacy doing much. If Israel is planning anything you can be sure that anyone in the know isn't talking and those who are talking don't know anything.
I freely admit to my bias about Iraq and if I take myself out of the equation you are absolutely right. What I would like to see from the Democrats is not more Bush bashing but an idea of how to fix this and getting out now is not the answer. The US has to fix things. I wish they would learn from our mistakes. The first few years of the intifada we were getting slaughtered for lack of a better word. Once the army and the government decided to get in there and clean things up and build a security fence things got better. Yes there are still attacks but not like in the past. They have to also build a strong Iraqi army. Then they can leave.
Targeted killings are an interesting thing. I am against the death penalty but I have less of an issue with this. My only problem is when like in Pakistan there is collatoral damage= inoccent lives lost. So if we are going to kill a terrorist leader I would prefer it to be at close range. I have seen first hand how families are destroyed when someone they love is killed by a terrorist and I don't think it hurts any less the family of the Palestinian who was an innocent bystander.
Anti American sentiment by some Muslem countries like Iran doesn't stem just from the war in Iraq anymore than Palestinians not wanting Israel to exist just because it is a Jewish state. We also represent the West and we have freedom. Hamas cannot run an Islamic state when the Palestinians can look over at us and see how free people live. They are afraid of it. Freedom will cause them to lose their grip on power and its all about power. Without it they are out of a job. Including Bin Laden.
Mutual respect is a long way off. However I believe that we basically would be okay if you took out the politicians and fundamentalist religious leaders.
I think there needs to be a Palestinian state because their birthrate is so high that I don't want to be taking care of them and they don't want me to. I think we should pull back to borders that we find suitable without waiting for them. I think that the 1967 borders are a myth and that is not what it says in UN resolution 242."
The words, "If they nuke us" ring very loud in my head. It is clear that I am not in the same mindframe as this person, I am saddened that this is even a thought in another person's mind. Nobody should ever have to say the words "If they nuke us..." I remember my parents talking about bombing drills when they were in school. In the US we fear another 9/11 style attack, we don't fear a nuke. Even as horrible as 9/11 was, there is no way to compare the 2.
I'll hug my dogs and wife a littler tighter tonight, every day is a gift. I've relearned that more than once thanks to the Dove'. I am not trying to be so heavy, I guess we should search for answers within ourselves, but we should hope and pray for better, more honest leaders throughout the world. I fear that without honest and noble leaders, this world may continue in the wrong direction. We simply can't afford to be divided based on our differences, we have to be drawn to eachother based on our common needs and desires. I learned this lesson early on from my parents, who learned it from their lives and their own parents. They taught me this. I can teach my own children this, but I can't teach the children on the other side of the world this. How do I make a difference to them? Tolerance and understanding is a lesson that must be taught world wide or I fear we shall never see a chance at Peace.
I do know that Music is one answer, I know that open dialogue is another, they are steps in the process. I think Podcasts like IronDove are vital for both the message and for creating a place where even a small group of people can discuss big issues. I like to have as much fun as the next guy (maybe the next 2 guys), but I'm also aware of what really matters, the meaningfulness and safety of family.
Jack
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IronDove
Administrator
| Joined: | 18 Aug 2005 |
| Location: | New York USA |
| Posts: | 67 |
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Posted: 7 Feb 2006 11:34 pm |
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Hey Jack!
Hamas is such a wiggly subject, and the whole situation is kind of like a bickering match between siblings. The only way to sort it out is to send them to their separate corners until tempers cool, and some sort of rational thinking prevails.
I don't, for a second, pretend to understand all of the underlying issues involved in this conflict, BUT I do know that there are always two sides to a story and somewhere in the middle lies the truth.
As you said “The problem is that Hamas is not only a terrorist group, it is also a political party,” and now a democratically elected majority.
And…since Hamas has been ‘democratically elected’ even though it may seem like a big fat bowl of worms if we are to have any credibility, we must all chow down. Within the rules of the game, we have to recognize them, but we do NOT have to play with them until they are willing to play by the rules. If we do not recognize them, then we are not playing by our own rules and the whole thing falls apart.
This is not a job for the US, it is a job for the world, in particular the UN. The United Nations and it's 196 Member states needs to pick up the pace a little and stop being a bureaucracy and start really working and I mean working VERY hard. The Assembly must step up to the plate and give encouragement, guidance (and in some cases apply pressure) from every angle possible to bring them into a place where they do not feel threatened and where they will first consider the rules and then abide by the rules.
The same rules come along with parenting. Parents (the UN) won’t always like the way you behave, BUT will ALWAYS LOVE YOU and look out for your best interest. That is their job, that is the job of the UN.
It is imperative that We ALL try to resist the temptation to respond by getting sucked into the dark vortex of anger and hatred. Israel must stop antagonizing the situation, as the US must also stop antagonizing the situation.
Today is a new day, and just because you behaved as a rotten kid yesterday I am not going to start the day by smacking you up-side the head. I will say good morning sweetheart and set my day with the best intention for peace and goodness.
It might sound elementary, but everything we ever needed to know, we learned in kindergarten, unless of course you didn’t go to kindergarten because you don’t have any schools, so in some cases people still need to learn:
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For the record the kindergarten saying goes:
Share everything. Play fair. Don’t hit people. Put things back where you found them. Clean up your own mess. Don’t take things that aren’t yours. Say you’re sorry when you hurt somebody. Wash your hands before you eat. Flush. Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you. Live a balanced life. Learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some. Take a nap every afternoon. When you go out into the world, watch for traffic, hold hands and stick together.
Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the plastic cup.
The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that. Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the plastic cup. . . they all die. So do we.
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We all share this beautiful planet in life and in death. We can choose to get along or we can choose to agree to disagree and stay in our own separate corners. Either way we just have to follow a few basic rules, and that includes the United States too. Perhaps we should tell George to revisit his kindergarten classroom.
Any mom or teacher or parent will tell you that and when things get out of hand, a time out or a nap can go a long way.
On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, sort of the kindergarten rulebook for nations.
It was to be “disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories."
It includes 30 articles, short one or two line sentences, the most basic of basic rules to live by, and if all of the 196 Member nations would REALLY “disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions,” I truly think we would be a lot closer to finding a harmonious place.
More likely, I think, the real problem is not that we can’t live harmoniously, but that certain powerful parties have a vested interest in maintaining an atmosphere of warfare.
A War is a big money maker. Take a look at the earnings reports of companies like:
Lockheed Martin :FOURTH QUARTER NET EARNINGS UP 53% TO $568 MILLION; FULL YEAR UP 44% TO $1.8 BILLION -or-
Haliburton’s Kellog Brown & Root: “The year 2005 was the best in our 86-year history,” Dave Lesar, Halliburton’s chairman, said Thursday.The company posted a year-end profit of $2.4 billion, or $4.54 per share, on revenue of $21 billion.
And then take a look at the recent budget, and the proposed 2007 budget. The numbers are so big that they dwarf any other program by Hundreds of Billions of Dollars. There is something very very wrong with this.
When our Congress gave up the power to make the “War” declaration and allowed one single man to wield the power to both declare and wage war, we started down a very slippery slope and if circumstantial evidence were enough to convict, George and his buddy Dick would probably get the proverbial boot. It is very probably that somewhere in the food chain, with built in plausible deniability of course, they did invent intelligence to take us to war which is truly unscrupulous and impeachable. I wonder, how much of a vested interest they have in the Middle East staying in a state of Chaos? Are they simply masters of divide and conquer, the consummate tricksters and the victims are the American people who are making a few megalomaniacs very very rich. Remember tricky Dick still gets a stipend from Haliburton.
If only our elected representatives would do their job, perhaps we can get a handle on this stuff.
As for the news…I have no reason to believe any of the corporate generated media we are fed, and must encourage everyone to find news outside of the mainstream US media market. The propaganda machine is alive and well fed by those who win when we are at war.
So Jack, that’s what I think today.
Peace
-L
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jackb
Member
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Posted: 4 Feb 2006 08:00 pm |
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Hello Irondove!
I have been away far too long, but i've been reading and I see alot of good stuff here. I want to only contribute my best to this community, because I only see and hear the best whenever I come across Irondove.
This is an interesting post, even for me, basically I had an email conversation with someone I know that lives in Israel, I wrote them back a long email about my feelings towards lots of things.... I think you will get it when you read it. Any further dialogue is super welcome and I'd love to discuss this more.
This excerpt is the heart of the email, the beginning and end have been truncated for editorial reasons.  Basically I was a bit too nice to Hamas in one of my recent shows, not that I was giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I wasn't as direct as I should have been and greatly wanted to respond to this, because I really respect the person who called me on this.
"..... As
you surely know, the conflict between Israel and Palestine is one that
predates my own existance and often seems so tangled and confusing
that it is hard to know what to think. I do know that suicide bombers
blowing up crowded eateries are no solution to peace. I'm inclined to
feel the same way about tactical air strikes. As a pacifist I can say
that the way to peace is seldom war. Regardless of its face, violence
always begets more violence. You know having dealt with children, you
have to sit both sides down and make them 1st respect one another
before they can begin to communicate peacefully and resolve their
differences. I am not trying to belittle any party here, its just an
example. I guess what I am trying to say is that any efforts towards
peace that include bombs and violence rarely actually result in
lasting peace.
I myself am removed from the situation and the truth because of what
distorted information comes across as media. I don't think that we in
the US have an honest and fair good source for whats actually
happening in the Middle east. Both with the issues on the West Bank,
and frankly with the realities of the battlefields of Iraq. As you
probably know, the news media in the US was canceled sometime in
between Natalie going missing in Aruba, and the Scott Peterson and
Michael Jackson trials. Sadly as a whole the American people do not
seem to care about what the greater issues are. Nor do they stand much
of a chance when the 4th estate, the media, refuses to do their job.
I fully recognize that Hamas is a terrorists organization, with great
propaganda as to boost its image, especially in Europe as some sort of
charitable group. Its like the KKK having a fundraiser to send all the
white kids to college, maybe they are helping the white kids, but come
on, they're still the KKK. I'm right there with ya. The problem is
that Hamas is not only a terrorist group, its also a political party.
Some would say that the Repulicans in this country are tanamount to
terrorists, economic and social terrorists, even actual terrorists by
our bombings in pakistan and those in iraq who's collateral damage has
been readily excused as unfortunate. So I guess, in my mincing of
words, I was trying to recognize that when you are dealing with a
ruling or even powerful political party, certain (although often
disatisfying) diplomacy is needed to even hope to begin any attempts
at peace. Maybe I am wrong, this is why I don't go further, maybe
Hamas will never rest until all of Israel is in ashes, maybe they are
so evil that they can never be trusted or dealt with, perhaps their
displacement or irradication is the only option for reasonable peace
talks. I honestly don't know. I can understand the sentiments towards
Iran when their leader makes bitter comments about Sharon, wishing
death and misfortune on the Israeli people. I'm inclined to think that
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a bastard, and cannot be trusted.
This is a hugely important issue to me, I understand its even more
relevant and pertainant to you because of where you live, where you
friends and family are. But now in this global world, it really does
affect us all. We all have to figure out how the hell to get along
right? There have been conflicts between different groups of people
for all of human history. Only the massive, universal and shared loss
of life seems to bring an end to war, sadly diplomacy and respect and
communication isn't given the chance that it deserves. Yes World War 2
did alot to end the Holocaust and change the world. But all parties
involved suffered massive losses, all parties were socially and
technologically set back for decades because of the "solution" that
was WW2. Peace came at a great price.
Can you tell this means alot to me too I don't mean to go on and on
forever, but i have to address a few things regarding Iraq. Saddam
Hussein is an evil @#$%er, this is undoubtable, he is (imho) most
comparable to Joe Stalin. Both men, however evil, did not embrace the
religious fervor that seems to fuel the hatred from Iran, Saudi Arabia
and other religious states. I personally think that mixing religion
and politics AT ALL is a hugely bad idea, I have never seen a country
in all of human history succeed socially or globally by mixing
religion and government. I think its a cursed idea, and that any
country that does not look back at history and realize the dangers of
religious governments and bear witness to their every last
distruction is being naive in their recollection of history. In secular countries, religion prospers, because its
given the freedom to do so, and the people are able to pick and choose
from the salad bar of beliefs without having to meet social or
government requirements of acceptance and tolerance. In religious
countries or even limited theocracies, religion festers, people loose
sight of the meaning, and, because they are given no choice, they
loose site of the message that that religion once taught. I hope that
made sense. In short Religion + Government (AT ALL) = Bad.
Now having said all of that, I say it because, yes, Joe Stallin and
Saddam Hussein are evil bastards and they do deserve the will of those
they tortured, but they weren't religious fanatics. Some would not
make a distinction between Greedy Political Dictators and True Believe
Religious Fanatic, but that is a mistake in realizing the motivations
of each. Osama Bin Laden does not care about money or power, he just
wants what he wants, based on his beliefs. We can't change that. on
the flip side, Saddam Hussein doesn't care about Allah or Sharia Law,
he wants power, money and control. By understanding the different
motivations, I think we as a human race can more effectively react to
each situation. Ultimately there has to be honesty in government,
especially democracies like the US, if we get mixed or incorrect
information, there can be no sense of unity and purpose.
Iraq is a mistake. Not only have 50,000 people been killed needlessly
(a nice way to set an example that WE are better than Saddam) but the
economic stability of the west has been thrown into the black hole of
spending that is Iraq. I put myself in the place of the Iraqi people,
I have a bastard leader I hate, (lets say, George W. Bush), a man
who's executed people in his death chambers, a guy who's appeal
towards religious fanatics grows with each election cycle. He's my
president right? Ok, so another country thinks he's an evil guy, they
say, look at those people George electrocuted in Texas, look at the
way he's poured government money into programs like the "Department of
Faith Based Initiatives", look at how he left his own people to die in
New Orleans. Look at the croneyism that has run amuck, corruption and
lobbyists buying political influence.
At what point does another country get to come in and remove my
president. Yes, I may harbor equally bad feelings towards the man, but
its my country, its has borders and those have to be respected. I am
saying this because I have to accurately explain my feelings towards
this "insurgancy". This is where the media quickly comes back into
play, who exactly are these people, and what groups to they represent.
I can be sure that the followers of people like Al Sadr are evil
religious militant nutjobs with Ak47s and death in their hearts, but
where is the point where the message of people like Sadr reaches
average iraqi people, what makes them take up arms. I don't know.
I imagine if say, India or France or Germany or Russia thought that
Bush was tanamount to Saddam and came into the US and tried to take
him out, I'd be pretty certain that Catholic Cardinals and Methodist
Bishops would encourage their parishes to take up arms in defense of
our religious freedom. At the same time, your basic political patriots
would take up arms, the groups would fragment and it would be hard for
outsiders to catagorize who's who. And thus the cycle begins all over
again....
It sure is complicated even when you don't even know all the facts,
the whole story. As a patriotic American <uses redneck voice, even
though i don't really have one> I want peace. My own father was a C.O.
in the Vietnam war, and I've been taught pacificm and tolerance all my
life, its really all I know. Yes, there is a time for taking up arms,
but usually everyone knows what time that is, there is universal
agreement. It should never take propaganda or lies to encourage
people to embrace the truth. Especially if that truth fires bits of
hot lead, or even worse White Phos.
I want to talk more about this, I should have reeled myself in a bit,
but it means so much to me that I wanted to give you full
understanding and explanation, I don't get alot of people writing me,
interested in these kinds of things so its means alot when a
knowledgable person like yourself writes and wants to discuss stuff.
No, its wouldn't make a good segment for a podcast, but understanding
and communication and co-learning is more important than any podcast
right? I think we all want peace, and we want our familes to be safe,
how do we do this?"
What do ya think?
Jack
Last edited on 4 Feb 2006 08:09 pm by jackb
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